Nobility Titles?

[Kell75]

What would be the best way to note a Noble title. I have an individual "Lady...." which that is fine as I just listed the "Lady" portion in the Prefix. However, she appears to also be "Countess of...."

Just looking for a general consess of the best way to enter this. I did enter detailed information on the research note section. The only other thing I could think was include the "countess in the Prefix field as well.

Or would it go as Suffix for her? So she would be "Lady" in the prefix but then suffix of Countess ...??

Thank you!

[Dennis J. Cunniff]

Re: Nobility Titles?

What would be the best way to note a Noble title. I have an individual "Lady...." which that is fine as I just listed the "Lady" portion in the Prefix. However, she appears to also be "Countess of...." [...] Or would it go as Suffix for her? So she would be "Lady" in the prefix but then suffix of Countess ...??

Well, her title would be Countess. "Lady" is a term of address, a courtesy title or honoric (different countries use different honorifics for various people), and it's very non-specific. A woman might start life being called "Lady" because she is the daughter of a duke, marquess, or earl, and become a countess on marrying an earl, for example, or become a countess in her own right.

You could put her title as a suffix (for example, First: Astrid Last: Bernadotte Suffix: Countess of Wisbourg)

I would not bother listing her honorific of Lady because [1] it doesn't say much about her, it could be because of her father's titles, her husband's, or her own, so it's very vague, and [2] it will change based on marital status, etc.

Calling someone Lady Christian Cavendish, Countess of Devonshire is like saying "Dr. Dennis Cunniff, M.D."

You want to avoid that. It's redundant, like suspenders and belt.


Of course the problem is that titles change, and a title at birth might not be the title used at death....

[Kell75]

Re: Nobility Titles?

Well, her title would be Countess. "Lady" is a term of address, a courtesy title or honoric (different countries use different honorifics for various people), and it's very non-specific. A woman might start life being called "Lady" because she is the daughter of a duke, marquess, or earl, and become a countess on marrying an earl, for example, or become a countess in her own right.

You could put her title as a suffix (for example, First: Astrid Last: Bernadotte Suffix: Countess of Wisbourg)

I would not bother listing her honorific of Lady because [1] it doesn't say much about her, it could be because of her father's titles, her husband's, or her own, so it's very vague, and [2] it will change based on marital status, etc.

Calling someone Lady Christian Cavendish, Countess of Devonshire is like saying "Dr. Dennis Cunniff, M.D."

You want to avoid that. It's redundant, like suspenders and belt.


Of course the problem is that titles change, and a title at birth might not be the title used at death....

Thank you so much for clarifying that - I never thought of it that way. I've not dealt with a title like that on my tree so far, so I had no clue. Thank you so much for the advice! It makes sense to me

Kellie

[Reiner L. Sauer]

Re: Nobility Titles?

Thank you so much for clarifying that - I never thought of it that way. I've not dealt with a title like that on my tree so far, so I had no clue. Thank you so much for the advice! It makes sense to me

Kellie

The way in which nobility titles are handled depends on the specific country. Since 1919, German law (BGB) makes the title part of the family name. For example: Hans Graf von Felsen should be handled as follows:
First Name: Hans
Family Name: Graf von Felsen

Source: Mirbach v., Johannes Baron, “Adelsnamen Adelstitel,” Wie macht man’s richtig?, Eine zeitgemäße Anleitung für Beruf und Gesellschaft, ⎆ C.A. Starke Verlag, © C.A. Starke Verlag, Limburg an der Lahn, Auflage №: Zweite erweiterte Auflage, ISBN 3-7980-0540-0, Limburg, 1999

Regards
Reiner

[Bob White]

Re: Nobility Titles?

Please forgive my ignorance of German words. It would help me to understand if you explain which word is a noble title.

[Dennis J. Cunniff]

Re: Nobility Titles?

Please forgive my ignorance of German words. It would help me to understand if you explain which word is a noble title.

"Graf" is the equivalent of "count" (which would be "Earl" in the UK). "Gräfin" is the equivalent of "Countess."

So if you were to translate "Hans Graf von Felsen", you'd get "Hans Count of Felsen".

The surnames/title substitutes are changed for gender, so the sons of Hans would be surnamed "Graf von Felsen" and his daughters would be surnamed "Gräfin von Felsen".

[colinc]

Re: Nobility Titles?

Well, her title would be Countess. "Lady" is a term of address, a courtesy title or honoric (different countries use different honorifics for various people), and it's very non-specific. A woman might start life being called "Lady" because she is the daughter of a duke, marquess, or earl, and become a countess on marrying an earl, for example, or become a countess in her own right.

You could put her title as a suffix (for example, First: Astrid Last: Bernadotte Suffix: Countess of Wisbourg)

I would not bother listing her honorific of Lady because [1] it doesn't say much about her, it could be because of her father's titles, her husband's, or her own, so it's very vague, and [2] it will change based on marital status, etc.

Calling someone Lady Christian Cavendish, Countess of Devonshire is like saying "Dr. Dennis Cunniff, M.D."

You want to avoid that. It's redundant, like suspenders and belt.

Of course the problem is that titles change, and a title at birth might not be the title used at death....

I'm not quite sure you are right Dennis, but sadly I no longer have my copy of 'Titles and forms of address'. People can have multiple titles, especially daughters and younger sons, as an 'honourific'. From memory it should be 'Lady Cavendish', if it is a hereditary peerage ['Baroness Cavendish' if a life peeress]. On the other hand I think the wife of a knight [KCB, KCMG, etc] would be Lady Christian Cavendish. If a 'knight' in her own right she would be Dame C C, without even having to go on stage at the Panto.

I seem to remember having a problem with titles as suffixes in Reunion with where to put the comma before the first title [my father being the unusual combo of CB and CMG]. If you put it after the family name all the children get it, and if you put it as a leading character in the suffix field I think you get a space ahead of it, but I'm not near my Mac to try it out.

Cheers, Colin

[A Hougie]

Re: Nobility Titles?

Interesting discussion. For genealogy purposes, the position I (try to) adopt is that I would not include "Lady" if she is a Lady by virtue of being the Countess, but if in her own right she was born or became "Lady", then I would.

One example might be Lady Georgiana Spencer, Duchess of Devonshire (7 June 1757 – 30 March 1806). She was the daughter of Earl Spencer and was "Lady" in that position, but she married William Cavendish, the 5th Duke of Devonshire and so became the Duchess.

I have solved Colin's comma problem by not including any commas :-)

Andrew

[Dennis J. Cunniff]

Re: Nobility Titles?

People can have multiple titles, especially daughters and younger sons, as an 'honourific'.

I didn't intend to deny that people can style/identify themselves in many ways, since it's clearly true.

I was trying to distinguish between terms of address and substantive titles. "Lady" is never a substantive title. It's a term of address that is used in several different situations: for a life peeress whose actual title would be baroness; for the wife of a knight or baronet; for daughters of dukes, marquesses and earls; for wives of certain peers in speech when not using a more formal term of address, etc., and each demands a specific use of or omission of first and or last names, and/or the word "The"; it's too multifariate for an exhaustive list. But it's a honorific, not a substantive title.

Yes, the wife of a knight is called "Lady Smith" while the daughter of a duke would be Lady John Smith". But you're not going to use a genealogy program and not record someone's forename!

Which is yet another reason to avoid treating the name like a term of address.