Source Fields & Citation detail

[theKiwi]

Re: Source Fields & Citation detail

Surely attaching such documents is overkill? A 'link' is more than efficient and keeps them outside the actual database, reducing bloat and sluggishness. And Detail is where the content resides, in a clear and logical fashion. The document held externally is just 'the proof' of Source. It need not be the actual contained document.
FWIW, dave

I'm not sure what you're saying here - linking an image to a source is just that - a link - the actual image always lives outside the Reunion database.

Roger

[janelucas]

Re: Source Fields & Citation detail

Hi Jane,
(b) I can write another procedure on how I did this but it involves using AppleScript and TextWrangler text editor, i.e. you run two applescript macros and afew import and exports of GEDCOM from within Reunion and the job is done. The reason for Applescript is that when you have 100s or more (I have around 250 images), you need an automated way of doing it. One issue I found, was sometimes the media is duplicated in the source - easy to rectify since Reunion allows you to sort by media count so they stand out; I think I had media attached to events as well which it fixed but I got duplicated items in the source.
If you are ok with option (b), reply to this thread and I will type this out sometime today. I just have to remember how I did it; I was abit of trial and error and I lost abit of hair doing it lol....
Also, I did have use for that worldwide Ancestry search if you are able to do a quick search for me; looking for an Alfred Bell Cook born in Bath, MA, USA from 1845 to 1847; not sure if you could see if there are any birth details?
Thanks heaps
Paul
PS I can not upload Applescripts here since they are an invalid file format for this forum. So I will include them in the PDF so you can copy and paste them into AppleScript Editor. You will need to modify them for your filename and directory path.

If it isn't too much trouble to do that it would be great, because I have a lot of images that weren't included in the GEDCOM I imported for some reason. But if it's a hassle and takes time, then don't worry, I can do it the other way you suggested.

From Ancestry, I have found 2 people who might you the above Cook, but no 'Bell' in the name that I could find.
(1) George Alfred Cook, 1844 Newton, Middlesex MA; Mother Sally, Father Artemis
(2) Alfred Cook 1843, Newburyport, MA; Mother Mary, Father Samuel D Cook..he married an Anna Toney
My geography of the USA is a bit patchy but I think it is more or less the right area?
If either of these are possibilities I think I can save the details to a PDF and attach here?

[s1xc00k]

Re: Source Fields & Citation detail

If it isn't too much trouble to do that it would be great, because I have a lot of images that weren't included in the GEDCOM I imported for some reason. But if it's a hassle and takes time, then don't worry, I can do it the other way you suggested.

From Ancestry, I have found 2 people who might you the above Cook, but no 'Bell' in the name that I could find.
(1) George Alfred Cook, 1844 Newton, Middlesex MA; Mother Sally, Father Artemis
(2) Alfred Cook 1843, Newburyport, MA; Mother Mary, Father Samuel D Cook..he married an Anna Toney
My geography of the USA is a bit patchy but I think it is more or less the right area?
If either of these are possibilities I think I can save the details to a PDF and attach here?

Hi Jane,
No worries, I will attempt tomorrow to prepare the how-to document, similar to before. I will try it out on a new family tree with afew images attached but you can expand that to include all your images.
Thank you very much for trying to find one of my ancestors, I think #2 maybe closer to the mark. I know that Alfred married Christina Ledingham on 1871 in New Zealand. Could he have married Anna Toney, then got divorced or simply left (the cad) and emigrated to another country; not sure? Depends on the date of the marriage I guess and whether there is an emigration details?
PS Also, did you attached any images to events (see attachment)?
Regards,
Paul

[janelucas]

Re: Source Fields & Citation detail

Hi Paul
Yes, some (most probably) media are attached to events , when I look in FTM. That is probably because, when I saved the record in Ancestry, it saved it to an event. Nearly all my media were saved in Ancestry, not FTM.
I am attaching the search results I have found for Alfred Bell Cook and Alfred Cook. A couple of them are other Ancestry Trees... which may be your own. So not necessarily helpful, as they don't have birth details. The other records are marriage and birth for Alfred Cook (no Bell).
If these are not your relative, I can carry on looking. It seemed odd that no birth record came up for an Alfred Bell, but several NZ families have him in their tree. And his marriage to Christina was in NZ, so you need the link to USA birth really methinks!

[janelucas]

Re: Source Fields & Citation detail

Hhmm.. not sure if you have all the attachments. Should be 5. Let me know if you think they are of use and I'll try again. Or I can email them to you.
Jane

[dante]

Re: Source Fields & Citation detail

Great discussion re; different ways folks use the sources. I tend to like less sources- For example, one book is one source even though I may use it for 20 different people. I divide the U.S. census down to the Enumeration District. I use the detail field to tell me the exact page, family or document which is easily found in my multimedia links to that specific source. This method makes sense to me as this would be the way I would use a source in a report or a story. My only misgiving is this: Does the information in the source detail field carry over well in GEDCOM?

Dante

[s1xc00k]

Re: Source Fields & Citation detail

Great discussion re; different ways folks use the sources. I tend to like less sources- For example, one book is one source even though I may use it for 20 different people. I divide the U.S. census down to the Enumeration District. I use the detail field to tell me the exact page, family or document which is easily found in my multimedia links to that specific source. This method makes sense to me as this would be the way I would use a source in a report or a story. My only misgiving is this: Does the information in the source detail field carry over well in GEDCOM?

Dante

Hi Dante,

Yes, there are many different approaches to sources and citations and people have different and passionate views. I was going to put my thoughts being a source is like a book and the citations are references to the pages within (similar to your comments). Some of Jane's sources relate to how Ancestry have created their sources and I am no expert on US census rather than saying the UK Census was split by year for each person, e.g. 1841 England Census for Z, 1851 England Census for Z, with citations being a traditional call number approach (one to one relationship) whereas they used a broader approach for electoral rolls, e.g New Zealand Electoral Roll, 19XX to 19YY for Z and each citation was the year (or more correctly, every third year when relevant) with a one-to-many approach. I like your approach re: "the way I would use a source in a report or a story". I suppose the key aspect is can you use the citation detail which relates to your source to clearly identify where this source information can be found if someone else (a family member looking at the tree once I have passed on) was using this information.

Regarding "Does the information in the source detail field carry over well in GEDCOM?" which can be an emotive topic as well. It gets exported into a PAGE GEDCOM tag by Reunion and depending on the "other" software being used, may or may not be handled well. My experiences, although not extensive is ok but to contradict myself, refer the eBook "Practical Citation Guide-Reunion 10 Edition-2.pdf" from Ben Sayer and his answer is no.

In summary, Reunion will export the citation detail as a PAGE GEDCOM tag. You may need to text edit the GEDCOM file prior to importing into the "other" software such that it could recognise this detail (assuming it does). I tend to find that you need to "tweak" GEDCOM files between applications but provided the data is exported and you can tweak it so the other application accepts it, you are all good. If the data is not exported, you have nothing. If the program does not recognise the TAG or the level of the tag, you need to work hard to think of work-arounds. This is the issue Jane is having with FTMM3, saving media against different areas of her tree that Reunion doesn't support, e.g. media on events and media on citations. Her approach made sense because that is how the fTMM3 program and Ancestry worked, the work-arounds to Reunion are doable (is that a word?) and worthwhile because Reunion is a great, well supported, has a strong user community as reflected in these forums and is an extremely stable application, but you lose hair and age tremendously in the process.

Regards,
Paul

[s1xc00k]

Re: Source Fields & Citation detail

Hi Paul
Yes, some (most probably) media are attached to events , when I look in FTM. That is probably because, when I saved the record in Ancestry, it saved it to an event. Nearly all my media were saved in Ancestry, not FTM.

Hi Jane,

As promised, I have attached a "DRAFT and UNTESTED" PDF that containing the process for "fixing" the media against citations and events, and converts the FTMM3 GEDCOM into a family tree that has the citation media saved against source records and the event media against the person relating to the events.

The afternoon is getting long and I need to do some gardening before making dinner, so I have not tested the processes in this PDF. They are copies from my original AppleScripts but I chopped out bits that didn't relate to your issue (to remove complications) and I haven't checked that my cutting was too severe (a tip for me prior to gardening).

Anyhow, can you review the document to see it is at a comfortable technical level and from that, I can test it and I can add dumps of what the GEDCOM file looks like at the end of each relevant step.

If the process looks too involved, please let me know and I can expand the explanations. Please note that in the first step, you are modifying a section of a GEDCOM file to create a customised AppleScript which is used later on and needs to be copied into another script file. Also, I have added a final step #4; I need to test if that is still necessary or whether the process works at the end of step #3.

Regards,
Paul

[janelucas]

Re: Source Fields & Citation detail

Many thanks Paul. I won't get chance to look at it until Friday probably as I'm off to visit some long lost cousins found whilst doing this family history stuff.
I see only one if the PDFs I created for Alfred Bell Cook have attached. I'll try again. Not sure hiw many I can attach in one go.
Jane

[janelucas]

Re: Source Fields & Citation detail

Th other PDFs are too big to attach so I'll have a look later and see if I can compress them. Or I can send via email if that's allowed!
Jane

[s1xc00k]

Re: Source Fields & Citation detail

Many thanks Paul. I won't get chance to look at it until Friday probably as I'm off to visit some long lost cousins found whilst doing this family history stuff.
I see only one if the PDFs I created for Alfred Bell Cook have attached. I'll try again. Not sure hiw many I can attach in one go.
Jane

Hi Jane,
Friday is good; I will try to test tomorrow or Friday, just to ensure it is ok. With the Alfred Cook entry in the US (#2), if you could post some material on him he would be appreciated. I have an Ancestry account but not a World-Wide subscription, i.e. no US access.
Kind regards,
Paul

[s1xc00k]

Re: Source Fields & Citation detail

Hi Jane,
Friday is good; I will try to test tomorrow or Friday, just to ensure it is ok.
Kind regards,
Paul

Hi Jane,

Please find attached the PDF outling the process to assign citation media to a source and event media to a person. I have tested this today and it worked reasonably well.

I would suggest creating a test family tree file with one person and two images, one against a source citation and another against an event and test it.

The files I have attached are;
- FTMM3-Reunion-Media V2.PDF (this is an amended file; the DRAFT had errors),
- JaneLucasScript1Example.txt (this is the first AppleScript file; probabky easier to copy and paste from into AppleScript utility),
- JaneLucasScript2Example.txt (second script but needs to be modified from step 1 from the PDF),
- JaneLucaseScript2ExampleWithAppleScriptTxtAdded.tx t (second script with an example of the step 1 process added into it), and
- AppleScript.txt (Example of step 1 process).
Be careful with the copy and paste to ensure the line-feeds come through ok - this was an issue I found in the preparation of this material.

I really hope it goes well for you and please let me know how you get on. I have an email link in my address should you need it.

[Teresa C]

Re: Source Fields & Citation detail

I'm not sure that overall this is a consensus - I have no problems with having thousands of sources if that's what's needed to properly help me source my data, and be able to easily retrieve and verify the sources.

Roger of the Other View

I completely agree with you - the main reason for me being the fact that in Reunion you cannot link an image to a citation detail, but only to a source. So I too have a separate source for everything I have media for.

I've been toying with moving over to FTMM3 recently, and one of the reasons is that it supports linking media to a citation. I think this does make sources / citations easier to manage, but in the long run I don't think it really matters how many sources you have as Reunion (or whatever other software you're using) manages them for you.

But for now I think I will be staying with Reunion as FTMM3 does not seem to support sources footnotes in genealogy reports, neither does it allow you to embed citations in note text.

Cheers,
Teresa